16 February, 2011

Yes...I'm a Feminist

(Funny Note. I accidentally published this on a joint blog I have with some other people called Nerdy Bot, all things nerdy. Nevertheless they loved it lol)

There, I said it.

No I don't go around burning bras and my friends don't call me butch, bitch or sex fiend. What I mean by this is that I believe that women continue to be treated unfairly. At my own university female teachers make about 20% less than male teachers. I hate it when people say,"But males are the bread winners of the family, they have to make more." Yeah, tell that to the English teacher who is divorced and has 4 kids to take care of. Why is it that men are so afraid of having a female in power? No really, I would like to see the reaction on peoples faces if a woman was appointed as the president's military adviser. Could you imagine the sexist remarks that would come if a woman was actually elected as president? We've seen it with Sara Palin running. I mean, come on, it's easy enough to poke fun at her for saying stupid things, she's a politician. There is no reason for sexist remarks.

We Americans take pride for being ahead of regions like the Middle East and Asia but we are far behind most of Europe which means that we should be open to progression with this issue. Too many people here say that we have achieved equality but most of those people have yet to experience the effects from the past that linger.

When a couple gets married they must look towards the feelings of their mate and find out how they want to live their life. Some women are fine with staying at home, taking care of the kids and making dinner for their husband so he can relax from a hard days work. When I got married I asked Mandi what role she would like to have in the relationship. It just goes to show how much power society has given me as a man in a relationship, I had to ask. Eventually we found a way to divide things out evenly but it still took a few years to find out what we both wanted. She still hasn't made a decision on whether or not she wants to have kids biologically or adopt but I will leave that up to her since it is her body. I can respect that. After all, I've never heard a man say, "I want to go through labor," but I'm sure there are a few crazies out there.

It just sucks when society says, "A boy is this," and "A girl does that." I would suggest to everyone to really look at their relationship and see who does what and how much work goes into what they are doing. It's always difficult to keep things even but everyone should always be working on it and avoid being stuck in routine to where they don't notice it. Yes, this is my blog and this is how I feel today because of the love I have for my lovely wife, Mandi :)

59 comments:

Cap said...

I commented on you other post for this, but I'll recomment my comment:

Great post, Jeff. I think there are serious problems with how America views themselves and this is obviously brought down on issues of sex. I think the biggest problem is that of ignorance. Ignorance is raging in more ways then that of women's rights and there needs to be some serious change before we are ever caught up to how a lot of the world has already progressed to. Women's rights is a major one and it needs to be addressed and brought to the attention of more people. I will admit, it is getting better, but there needs to be more of a push for equality.

Also, This is a quote from Gandhi in regards to non-violent resistance, but I think it fits here, "I learnt the lesson on nonviolence from my wife, when I tried to bend her to my will. Her determined resistance to my will on the one hand, and her quiet submission to the suffering my stupidity involved on the other, ultimately made me ashamed of myself and cured me of my stupidity in thinking that I was born to rule over her."

Anonymous said...

I can agree with you to a point. I think it goes both ways somtimes dependeing on the job. I do think women should be paid just as much as men if they can do an equal amount of work. Because you have children as single mother and you have hardships should not grant you a card to play. It all goes back to what martin luther king said about race. By the content of their charracter not by the color of their skin. That can apply to sexes races religion etc. I work for women at my job who make just as much as thire counterparts. Tyler has a friend that got fired from his job in San Francisco because he was mormon. I can not attach myself to a cause because we are all at some point in time being opressed in some way.

Jeffrey Dean Root said...

I agree with you Russell. It really should depend on character and ability and that is what I am getting at, it doesn't in our society. The higher jobs such as management and politics usually go to white males, and not because they are more qualified but because of who they know and identification of looks. Take the president of UVU for example. Matthew Holland got the job as our president, not for being more qualified but because he is the son of a certain apostle. I can't stand the man. He came in and fired a lot of good people, including Mandi's Dad, and brought his buddies in. A lot of people pulled out of donating for some of the things he has done and now the school suffers from it. We are building a science building that we don't have the funding for. He was also the one who organized the National Organization of Marriage that lead the charge in prohibiting gays from marrying their partners.

Jeffrey Dean Root said...

I join causes that argue their cases well but have little voice and power in the masses. Look at the effect something like that has had in Egypt. I only hope that the change is for the better.

Alene said...

I am proud to call myself a feminist too though I once attended the club meeting on campus called "VOICE" and was really intimated. I'm traditional as far as my own desires for family roles, but feminist in the work place.

But a thousand times more important to me is the desire I have for equality in the weighing of people's opinions and suggestions that is so sexist. It actually makes me sick whenever I think about what a sexist world it is.

Jeffrey Dean Root said...

I can respect people's opinions even if they are opposite of mine, so long as they argue their case well. I can't stand it when people say, "I choose this way because my hierarchy told me that this was right." I really bring things up because I think it is important to question things even when we are told not too. If everyone thought like their mother and father, king and queen, teacher, or religious figure, there would be no progress in the world. My opinions will always change because people bring things up that I never thought of before. If we are open to change we can breakdown barriers that we never knew were there.

Jeffrey Dean Root said...

PS: Alene. I would like to see "lets reborn" come back to life. I miss your blog. I came back to blogging because my facebook posts were becoming pointless. It's like a competition of who can say the funniest thing of the day but it doesn't really matter because it only makes us a society of one liners.

Billy Root said...

I don't know why people use feminism as if it's a dirty word. Women in early Mormon history were staunch suffragists (Maria Young, one of Brigham's daughters). In fact, Martha Hughes Cannon was the first woman in American history to be elected as a state senator. What's funny was she defeated her own husband, who was also on the ballot.

The feminist effort obviously changed as Mormons shifted to mainstream society. They were the social outcasts of their day, and the feminist effort seemed to have made it complicated.

Here's a 1915 Boston Journal ad warning against the dangers of women's suffrage lays all manner of dangers at the feet of "burdening" women with the vote, including increased taxes and divorce. It warns that extending the vote to women is a joint plot of the anarchist Industrial Workers of the World, socialists, and Mormons:

http://craphound.com/images/1915_Boston.jpg

Good to know that we've come so far in our political rhetoric.

Jeffrey Dean Root said...

That's a great post Billy. It's too bad things didn't continue to go in that direction for the church. Maybe it has to do with the male dominated authority system. All priesthood for males and the pains of childbirth for women. Some women like it but others feel like they got the raw end of the deal. So who is right?

Billy Root said...

Didn't realize I wrote "feminist effort" twice. Writing at 3 in the morning causes me to go into redundancy. Ha ha

Anonymous said...

I guess from my point of view I don't see it where I work. I have female leads supervisors managers and even the FSD of TSA in Utah is a woman. Thats the head of TSA in utah. The top. Also my last job I worked all my bosses were women. Mom was one of them. Hillary Clinton ran for president and lost to the Obama (a black man) and thats awsome that a black man can be president. And white men are elected in politics not because of who they know. Correction he who has the most money wins elections. Where are you getting all your info from? I think there are places you go where there is still discrimination against women, skin color etc. So what do we do in those situations. If you think afirmative action is the answer then I would be so bold as to call you a racist. I don't think that is the direction you would want to go.

I don't see myself as an opressor of women being a white male. I let Randa make all her own decisions. As you know we don't have kids yet. She plans on working even after we do have kids. I don't think she wants to be the head of a major corporation but if she does I would be fine with that. I am also happy to say after partaking of the fruit I'm not ashamed of the church. I sleep under the tree. Sound asleep. I see nothing wrong with believing in the prophets. I have questioned everything about the church. I can not deny the spirit. That is another conversation I wish to get to eventually. But in the mean time what do we do about all this inequality in this country?

Anonymous said...

Another more emportant thing I want to say. I have the most respect for women who want to raise thier own children. Most would rather do other things with thier lives. Those who put chidren before their own lives are heros to me. Fathers who would rather raise kids are also heros to me. It doesn't matter who stays home and raises the kids. Children are always left out or thrown to the side when it comes to the stupidity of adults and thier desires. Children are never ever a burden to me. Children are the world to me. I know what Christ like love for children meens.

Jeffrey Dean Root said...

Woah there. I never said affirmative action was the right way to go but the truth is, it's a man's world and women are underpaid compared to men in the same position. I'm also not saying that all men are responsible but I think that most men do not see it. Mandi and I want to have kids but even if she didn't I wouldn't think any less of her for it and I wouldn't think those who have them are any better than she. Having kids is a choice and a personal one. It doesn't make you superior for having them. I think it has a lot to do with religion and maybe that kind of attitude is what made me realize that religious superiority was not for me.

Jeffrey Dean Root said...

PS: Mandi and I plan on adopting children because there are so many out there that already need homes.

Anonymous said...

I don't know of any job where a man makes more because he's a man. My job is not like that. Randas job is not like that. Randas moms job is not like that. Is fast food like that? I don't know. Just give me an example. I just get pissed off when people bring color into the situation. You say white man like it's a bad thing. Do female teachers really get hired on to make 20 percent less than there male counterparts? I find that hard to beleive. Sorry. I donn't know if you found those numbers out for yourself or if you heard it from somone that works there. I hope thats not the case. Some people have seniority or a special skill to make more. Some female teachers make more than male teachers. Is it only like this in teacher land? Maybe if I was in your shoes I could see it. I work in an environment were I have lots of female bosses. All of them make thousands more than I do. But I don't care. They perhaps have skills that I don't or simply put in for the job. Good for them. I don't care if the next president of the united states is a female. Well I guess I do if I agree with her. Thats what matters.

I admit there are sexism and male idiots out there who say stupid things but you should spend the day with a lot of the girls I work with and it may change your mind.

Now seriously what should be done about this problem we have in parts of the country. I know it is still in the world. But you tell me how to fix it without afirmative action. That is the only way to fix it. To force it. I never ment thats what you said. What I meant was that is the only answere. But I don't agree with it. What can be done?

Jeffrey Dean Root said...

Jobs where men make more
1. Mom's job. When 2 companies merged Mom was given more accounts. They brought a new guy in to be the other supervisor. He started off making about $7,000 more a year than Mom and she had more accounts.

2. I already told you about Utah Valley University. That's just one example in the school system. You can look up each school district in Utah and see exactly what each teacher makes. You will find that on average a male teacher will make 5-$10,000 more a year than a female teacher in the same position. Here is the site http://www.utahsright.com/salaries.php?query=&city=uvsc2&position=&order=&oType=&page=2

3. Your old babysitter Jennifer Ditrich. She worked in the payroll department at a major company down in Las Vegas and saw what males and females were making for the same positions. The males were the only ones to get bonuses because they had families to take care of. And as if the females didn't?

The way to solve this issue is through parenting. Things have no doubt gotten better since the civil rights movement but those who say that the system is now fixed are only kidding themselves. Our generation was raised by people who lived through the 60's and there is still a lot of division going on. Those who are still bitter about the civil rights movement are still around spreading problem, and I'm not just talking about conservatives like Rush Limbaugh and Bill O'Riley. You can attribute many of the problems to people like Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton. They don't want equality, they want to tip the scales and that is far from what Martin Luther King wanted for the world.
I think the best thing we can do is to get a liberal education, and I don't mean liberal in the political sense, I mean liberal as in a wide range of teachings. So many people are formed by who their parents are and never have a chance to find themselves. I've learned some good things from my parents that I would teach my children and I've learned of things I would do differently. A liberal education allows you to hear and understand the difference of opinions as well as appreciation for the work of others. Like when I take a biology class and we learn about genetics. To know the process of identifying a recessive trait is something that I am thankful to those who actually put it into practice to save lives. I can see how difficult it is for them.

Jeffrey Dean Root said...

So yeah. My solution to the whole problem would be to make it affordable for our children to get a liberal education. I don't want my children to think that they need to believe in my ideologies because I am their father. I would hope that there would be a day when we could see each other as equals and give each other advice. Trust me, it sucks when your the only one who can't speak when a political discussion comes up at a family party because your parents asked you not to. You want them all to be the same. I think it would be more fair if everyone was discouraged from speaking their mind on such things, at least nobody would feel left out. But where would be the progression in that?

Anonymous said...

Another thing. I don't have much time to put words down only in between 10 minute breaks and my spelling is not the greatest and I don't have much time to express myself in that short amount of time so what I write may come off blunt and rude.

What I wanted to express about respect to women and men who choose to raise thier own kids was not having kids in general. Anyone can have a kid. Not everyone puts them first. People who think having kids is a burden and disgusting I have no respect for. People who put children first (and not just parents) I have respect for. Teachers (not all), parents , grandparents, uncles, aunts, anyone who puts children first I have respect for. If we were all as children the world would be a better place. Religion aside, I use to teach the 5 year olds in sunday school and they had such a huge impact on me. Once again religion aside, I understood the words of christ when he spoke about children. Christ said true things that everyone can beleive in. You may not beleive he was the son of god or a prophet or that he even existed but the words are somthing everyone can beleive in. Children are the world. Families are important for children to thrive in. I'm not just talking about religious families. James has good parents. I have always liked and respected his parents. They are good parents. Some teachers I have had over the years I know really cared about me. Even when I didn't care, they did. I have also had other teachers who did'nt care at all. To those teachers I extend my middle finger. To the ones who cared I say thank you and sorry for not trying harder.

Anyway woman are great and they should be able to do what they will. Men are also great and should be able to do as they will. If we were children we would not have dumb conversations.

Anonymous said...

Ok if you say so on those accounts of what you have seen. I will take your word for it. It's not like that where I work or where randa works. I think I would be sick if I worked for a company that didn't treat their employees equally. If that is how the state school sytem works it sounds like a goverment problem and in need of reform.

I need to go. One thing. Never use white male or any color in a negative sentence. It pisses me off.

At the moment, I think Mexicans are the most opressed people in our society. That is what I care about as far as equal rights. They are opressed by those who wish to make laws to opress them and they are opressed by those who petition to do nothing. They are exploited in the work place. This is another topic.

I will beleive you. But the only thing I can do, like you said, is to be a good parent. I'm not a feminist. I beleive there are much more problems to attach myself to this one thing.

Jeffrey Dean Root said...

I don't feel it's a negative label to call myself a Feminist. I'm also an Atheist, a Human Being, a Scholar, a Lover, a Friend, a Brother etc. Just as others would label themselves as Mormons, Catholics Jews, Muslims, Buddhists etc. You can be a part of many causes.
I for one cannot believe in your cause for safe guarding your religious beliefs because they affect the free agency of others. Yes there are good things that come out of all religions but when they hold to passing unjust regulation in government affairs and prohibit ordinances for years because of race and orientation I cannot see how it can be what you say it is. Jesus taught some great things and so did Abraham Lincoln and Rosa Parks. None were perfect but they have had influence in my life. Mandi and I do plan on putting the children first and most of all we see the importance of adopting because there are so many children out there who need homes. If we pass all of the red tape for adoption we will see no need to have children biologically. This is why I don't believe in MOST CASES of abortion. I see it as a selfish and irresponsible practice. We must all be accountable for our own actions and if Mandi and I do so happen to bring a child into this world we will care for it just as much as any other child we adopt. Having a child biologically is just as beautiful as adopting a child. You can ask Mandi's parents about that.

Anonymous said...

I think I may have overreacted on this subject. I guess because I'm a white male I feel hated by the rest of the world. I did not know women were paid less for the same job in certain jobs still. It's just not like that where I work. The one who makes the most at TSA Utah is a woman. She probably makes $150,000+. thats almost five times more than I make. Could this have happened 20 or even 10 years ago. Maybe not.

I wish I would have just posted a joke and said-do the dishes and get me a beer. But I'm afraid I missed that oportunity.

Anyways sorry if I came off upset. I was upset. I didn't understand where you were coming from. Now I do. You are right. Men rule the earth. Women have to work twice as hard it seems to get ahead. I already knew that. we men are a strange species. The natural instincs we have are too bad somtimes.

Guns are cool

Jeffrey Dean Root said...

It's not about putting down men or white men. It's about using what power "society" has given us to help continue the fight for equality in all places. I'm really happy to hear that you fight for immigrants in the work place. They are an easy target for employers. I wish more people were like you, seeing them as human beings who have to live on the same planet or as "God's Children." I can respect that.
I don't take things too hard during a debate. If I get red headed it's because I know I am in the wrong and I haven't argued my case well enough to support it. That's why I moved things to my blog, because some people on facebook told me that it wasn't a place for debate, just funny comments and updates on life. My attempts at pissing everyone off in the world suceded lol.

Anonymous said...

I think you are smart in your aproach to the argument and you have convinced me that women are not equal.

But in my aparent taking away of the freeagency of others you are just as guilty by voting for a horable President whos policies do the same.

And your freeagency wasn't taken away by the church, it was the voters of california. I only follow the church because I know by the spirit it is true. I can't prove it. You have been brought up in the church your whole life but you act like you don't know anything about it. They don't teach hate, They don't teach people to abuse thier wives or to put them in thier place. In fact if you can remember in the temple men and women enter into a new order of the priesthood together. The patriarical priesthood. You both have that priesthood to rule in your home. So yes women still recieve the preisthood in the temple. I wish this was explained to people more. I didn't relise this until I read some old doctrine. It is plain as day. No it's not the authority to rule in the church but to rule in the house. Sorry for the preaching but when you bring up the subjects I must try and resolve those conserns. Oh and blacks did recieve the priesthood back in the day. The last black man to recieve the preisthood was in the 1920s I believe. And once it was taken away it has been known that at a later time all worthy males will be alowed to hold it one day. Why was it taken away? I don't know. I have several guesses. And I'm sure you do too. These are things you already knew why do you act like you don't? Are you ashamed of the church?

Jeffrey Dean Root said...

Just because you give a few blacks the priesthood before 1978 does not make up for the fact that the majority couldn't receive it because of their skin color. It goes against the second article of faith. There are too many contradictions with all religions. I don't want to be a part of a church that says I will have many wives in heaven. Mandi is the only girl for me. I know the church says that it's on some higher spiritual level but what I feel inside tells me it's wrong. As for prop 8 in California, you can listen to the audio of the private broadcasts that were given during an emergency leadership meeting over prop 8. You may not see what the apostles said as hateful words but to my gay friends, those words come just as harsh as the words of an anit-mormon would come to you. You have to see things from someone else' perspective in order to fully understand how much it hurts. Over $20 million from LDS member donations to prop 8 another $180,000 from the LDS church itself. Non profit organizations are not supposed to donate to political causes if they want to stay tax exempt. If they want to find a way to force the law on others then the law should be forced on them as well without whining about it. So much of this could have been avoided if the church stayed out of the issue all together and didn't influence the members to make a decision by saying "Donate of your time and your means" all it would have take was 2% of the vote for gays to win with prop 8 and money won the election as usual. PS: I regret voting for Barack Obama. I think he has done a terrible job as president just as I regretted voting for George Bush. I've had a chance to see both sides and hopefully I can make a better judgment next time.

Anonymous said...

The second article of faith? You have been away too long. You don't even remember what it says. Blacks were not deprived of the priesthood because they were sinners. And the church was aposed to slavery.

I will give you this, that it may have been a mistake. It may have stated on the way to Salt lake I think from winter quarters when a black man in the church claimed to have visions and revelations and many people followed after him. He took many white wives and it pissed a lot of people off. Brigham young beeing the ill tempered man he was may have used poor judgement. I think Kimble even said it may have been a mistake.

Anonymous said...

Here is where your $180,000 number came from.

The contributions included tens of thousands of dollars for expenses such as airline tickets, hotel and restaurant bills and car-rental bills for top church officials such as L. Whitney Clayton, along with $96,849.31 worth of “compensated staff time” for church employees.

Now for the actual contributions to prop 8 go here-

http://www.sfgate.com/webdb/prop8/?appSession=902203387622671&RecordID=&PageID=2&PrevPageID=1&cpipage=1&CPISortType=&CPIorderBy=

Wow! I can't beleive you post stuff without looking it up first. There are a few churches who did donate and yes that was wrong. I looked at the whole list of contributers.

Jeffrey Dean Root said...

I thought they were being punished for the sins of Cain. But like most prophets and apostles, you never know when they are speaking the word of god or their own opinions. This is why you interpret the same scripture differently as I do or as someone else in the church or outside of the church does. If I am to use my feelings and experiences to understand what is right and wrong then I will tell you that the overwhelming feeling I have to leave religion is the right choice. If I got anywhere close to being religious it would be spiritual, not denominational. I know that because I have left the church and will never return the doctrine of the church says I will not live in the celestial kingdom with god and my family. If that's what they believe then so be it. I will not rule out other possibilities in hopes that there is a god who loves his children more than that. Those are my feelings on the matter.

Anonymous said...

As for multiple wives in heaven, Correct me if I am wrong, it's not a requirment to have multiple wives to go to heaven. I prefer having one wife. Only 3 percent of members in the LDS church had multiple wives when it was practiced. You don't even need to be married to go to heaven. Only baptized. You do need to be endowed I beleive to up from there.
There are three degrees of glory in the celestial kingdom. The requirment to get to the the highest degree is to be sealed. Just a refresher. I don't remember it saying multiple wives. I know it's possible. But why? Could it be that women will out number men three to one. What does that say about man. I know what your thinking.(Lucky men) No! Women are more richeous than men aperantly. Shux

Anonymous said...

I beleive god is just and knows the heart of every living soul. If he is anything like dad you will be with us.

Jeffrey Dean Root said...

If the church is paying for leaders to go out and speak for prop 8 then I consider that a contribution. Hotel fees, air line tickets etc. They are not supposed to be involved in politics and the church has said this before. Why for this issue?

Jeffrey Dean Root said...

PS: The Church was fined for it's political contributions but not enough. The church agreed to release documents showing that they had contributed $37,000 to the prop 8 campaign but other documents show more. You can pretend that the church is perfect but I feel it's no better than the rest as you would claim.
http://www.standard.net/topics/religion/2010/06/09/mormon-church-faces-fine-over-prop-8-donations

Anonymous said...

here is a statment from the same story you are getting this from.

Mormon Church spokeswoman Kim Farah directed The Associated Press to a statement on the church's website that said the campaign violations were unintentional and stemmed from a misunderstanding about how often contributions needed to be reported.



"All institutional contributions made by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints to the ProtectMarriage Coalition were reported to the appropriate authorities in California," the statement said. "Claims that the Church misrepresented its contributions to the ProtectMarriage coalition are false


Oops somebody messed up. I'm sure the church tried to do everything in their power to make things legal.

And why for this issue you ask? There is a document the church created a while ago called a proclamation to the world that states marriage is ordanined of god between a man and a woman. Homosexual acts are an abomination to god. The church wants to protect the sanctity of marriage. That is what we beleive in. Why wouldn't they? This is the bigest threat to the family ever. My opinion. I personally would not car if they married whoever they want. One day it will happen everywhere. The world is more and more corrupt every year. It's funny how things are playing out just as the prophets said they would. People would leave the church for being ashamed of the fruit and head to that great and spacious building with no foundation. Pointing fingers and mocking those who partake. Oh yah and burning down chuches and harassing people and spreading baseless crap around. Mud slinging as some would say

Jeffrey Dean Root said...

So you are saying that your church is without fault? The church can come up with an excuse for everything just like every other church does. Saying that they didn't realize they were contributing is a crock. The church can persecute the innocent but does not want to be questioned in return. I'm sorry but if you believe that homosexual acts are an abomination then I will say the same about your opinions. I find you just as hateful as people who vandalize temples and headquarters of gay organizations. Trust me, what I'm talking about is soft compared to the stuff you will get from the radicals out there. Very soft. I do not see my friend's acts as an abomination. They are two consenting adults who love each other and destroying that love would be an abomination. I could never, ever return to the church knowing how they feel about my friends and myself.

Anonymous said...

Let's put it this way if christ personally made the contributions it would have been done corectly. The person who was in charge made a mistake. People make mistakes in the church. And those contributions were thru the right vhanels. Through a coalition. Not directly to the campain. You may think this is wrong but it is legal. If the contributions were illegal people would know. Now if the church fails to report contributions to their coalition it is a penalty.

Here is another quote from your story.

The commission's five appointed members are scheduled to consider the proposed settlement on Thursday. The investigation did not uncover evidence that the church failed to disclose any contributions but concluded that it failed to meet required deadlines for disclosing the value of 13 days of staff time devoted to the campaign.

There is a saying we have in the church that the church is perfect but the people are not. Some one screwed up. That doesn't mean jesus messed up. The plan of salvation alows us to make mistakes when we are here on earth. God sent his only begotten son to atone for our sins. Most people beleive in god. even though we call him by difrent names we know that god lives. Should I just start teaching you the first discusion since you have forgotten how cool the people are in this church or not. You seem to have forgotten how nice people are in the church. Since I have moved to utah I get crap from people just about every day.

Well you are getting up set I can tell. I thought you didn't get upset too easy.

Here is a real challenge. If you are so involved in a cause then prove it. Donate 10 percent of your time or money to a cause you believe in then I'll beleive your seriouse about what you say. I didn't see your list on the names of people who apposed prop 8

Jeffrey Dean Root said...

My donation to the cause was being vocal about it. I wrote a ten page essay in my English 2010 class over the unconstitutionality of proposition 8 and had to debate the subject with a class of twenty people of whom I was the only one against the proposition. I wrote another paper in my Ethics and Values class about Gay Marriage and Morality. Luckily there were a few more open minded people in that class who helped me debate the topic. I am happy to say that there are some Mormons out there who do not feel the same way as you do about gay marriage and they still feel like strong members of the church. Right now I focus on donating my money to disaster relief funds like the American Red Cross. Tithing builds churches, temples and pays for the living and travel allowances of the general authorities. I would respect tithing more if it went to the churches humanitarian efforts instead. It is nice to know that some people give more aside from tithing. PS: Tithing has not always resulted in good things. Just because you feel that you've received blessings from it doesn't mean everyone has. As far as the churches leaders not being perfect, I could say the same for every other church out there. So with your logic, their churches would be justified in saying that they have the one true church on the Earth. I can see the love, but I can also see the hypocrisy.

Anonymous said...

You seem so suprised at what I beleive in. I thought you already knew. I don't hate anyone. I may not agree with you or your life style. I'm asuming you still understand the plan of salvation. God created man and women to multiply and replenish the earth. Now that would be impossible if it was two men or two women. It is oposite of the plan. That is what I beleive in. If they don't progress thats their choice. Good for them. They will be in a place where they can be happier. I don't care if two men want to have sex. It's definatly not normal.

And Jeff I'm sorry I'm hateful. Maybe you now know how everyone else feels when you say your opinions. I don't usually take my time to write stuff on the internet on my brakes. And I don't like to crap on peoples beleifs. I don't even care about what has been said. Look what happens when people don't respect other peoples beleifs. I usually don't go on this long arguing because arguing is stupid. I respect you. That is why I dont always tell you what I think about what you beleive in. To me it seems you don't respect anybodys beliefs or respect anyone at all. You love to bash religion over and over and over again while those around you who care about you take it on the chin. People tip toe around you most of the time. They don't want to hurt your feelings. I know you love your gay friends. LDS people love them just as much as you. Some even have members in the family that are gay. I now know how you feel about me and it does hurt. I'm sorry but I can't do that to you. I would rather punch you in the face it would hurt less. just kidding. Anyway I may have failed at giving you a taste of your own medicine. I probably made things worse. I just want you to see how arguing makes people angry and divides them. All I can tell you is believe in what you will and I won't kick you in the balls for it if you don't kick me in mine.

Otherwise lets keep on going. I don't want to. I can bash all kinds of crap you might believe in then I would concider myself a prick. I could say things about what you beleive in that I know would drive you away forever. But I won't. I'm not a prick.

Don't be a prick! Or a Dick or I'll give you a taste of your own dick medicine

Jeffrey Dean Root said...

You think that because I question how your religion treats other people that it's called bashing. Like I said. There are some in your religion whom I respect because they are willing to question authority before they follow blindly. If I call your religious acts an abomination am I attacking your religion just much as you say homosexual acts are an abomination? I can raise and lower the argument to the level you give me back to show you how it feels to be on the other side.

You pretend that I don't remember anything about the church but I remember everything I was taught. You say you do not hate gays but you do not respect their right to make a personal decision. You feel like you have to step in and make it for them. I believe taking away someones free agency is a disgrace against the plan of salvation you believe in. People are supposed to make the decision to follow the plan on their own, they should not be forced to be influenced by it because part of it was adopted into law.

Some Mormons are more open to gay marriage because they know that they were persecuted in the past for their decision to practice polygamy. Believe it or not if the church wanted to reinstate polygamy I wouldn't have a problem with it, so long as those who are practicing it are of consenting age. I support the churches right to exclude membership to those who they believe are unworthy and I also support the right to close the temple to the public.

As you can see, my beef with the church is the way they step into non believers lives. You cannot run from it. They are a powerful organization and it has affected many of my friends. When the church tells the members in sacrament meeting to donate of their time and money in order to defeat gay marriage, it works. The majority of the contributions for prop 8 came from members of the LDS church. If they stayed out of non believers lives, there would be nothing to debate. Gay marriage would not have passed by the 2 percent that it did and life be a little better for us all.

I continue to fight for this because I know it will be on the ballot in 2 more years. Until it passes I will have to continue to fight for my friends. Everything I feel tells me that it is the right thing to do, that they deserve what I have, a marriage recognized under the law. I looked forward to my wedding day, you looked forward to yours and they continue to look forward to theirs. Trust me, it is the same. They are two consenting adults who love each other.

Jeffrey Dean Root said...

Your freedom to believe is not what I have a problem with, it's how it is forced on others through law. You could believe in a giant cosmic muffin for all I care, so long as you don't pass legislation saying my gay friends have to eat it lol. Understand?

Anonymous said...

maybe I didn't make myself clear in in my last statment. You treat others like crap. That is not a good political discusion. That to me is hatred. I actualy think gays should be able to marry too. I don't care if they get married. It doesn't effect me. I was just trying to give you a taste of what you give to everybody else. I know the law will pass one day that gays will marry. I'm fine with that. I beleive in evolution just like you. It's taught at BYU. You started attacking me personally and that hurts. I don't think your opinions are an obomination. I don't think you are being fair in your statments or truthful about the church. I can understand why you hate the church so much and it's members.

I said a prayer yesturday not knowing what to do and my answere was to let you bash my religion. I recieve blessing for it anyway. Blessed are those who are persecuted for his namesake. If you want to have dignified conversations that would be good. But if you can't stop yourself from arguing maybe you should reconsider. I can bash you all day. Bashing is easy.



All I'm trying to say is be nice to people.

Jeffrey Dean Root said...

At some point this debate whet from feminism to religion. In fact, it was Billy who said that the church led the way for feminism by allowing women to vote in Utah. I think that's great. I just wish certain things would be more of a focus than others. I'm happy to see that you do not think that homosexual acts are an abomination. That makes me feel much better and I have gained more respect for you. I moved all of my debates to my blog for those who wanted to read and discuss because it is a more private forum rather than going to facebook or talking about this stuff during family parties. People can choose not to read my blog so really it's up to them to even talk about this stuff with me. I still love all my brothers and sisters but sometimes it's hard not to come down on the religion I was once a part of because one of the reasons I left was because of how they treated my friends. I don't care how the church feels about my friends but for it to interfere in their personal lives makes me want to fight it. Then I end up saying things that I regret.

Anonymous said...

I never said I don't think homosexual ats are not an abomination. I still feel that way but I think they should feel free to do whatever they want.

And yes the conversation went to religion. I thought it would be a good time to try and argue with you to prove a point and it was dumb. Sorry I tried to toy with you. That was wrong and mean of me. I just get so frustrated when I hear things about you telling people how to raise thier kids or telling people their remarks are racist when actually the remarks made are biased. I only want to be a peacemaker in the family. I don't want to argue with anyone about politics or religion. I don't like Mitt Romney (at all) but I don't try and argue with mom and dad about him. I don't like rush limbaugh. I hate large corporations, big oil, unions, GE,aarp etc. People who spit on the mexican. I beleive in separation of church and state even though it's not in the constitution. I can say I don't beleive in damocracy very much anymore because it does take other peoples rights away. A republic with a constitution that grants every individual his own rights is what I beleive in. Well I beleve in many more things like god and the mormon church. And maybe the leaders don't always make the right choices. I think sometimes god leaves them alone to make those choices. That is freedom. If I was in charge I would do nothing about stoping gay marriage. I wouldn't allow it in the church since it's not what we beleive in. I don't think gays are going to hell. Mormons really don't beleive in hell the way other religions do. The church teaches that people will do things contrary to his will. If they don't want to follow he created a place where they can be happy. Nothing wrong with that.

Jeffrey Dean Root said...

I respect that.

Anonymous said...

I am sorry. Sometimes I don't know what point I am trying to get across half the time. I wish people could see how scrambled my thoughts are. Sometimes I think it's because of all the test doctors did to my brain when I was 7 years old. All the wires glued to my head and all the pills I took because they thought I had epilepsy. I think it may have messed up my brain a little. Like somthing from a science fiction movie. I'm really not kidding. I have short term memory loss I think.

Jeffrey Dean Root said...

I stopped bringing politics and religion up a long time ago with the family. I left facebook for that very reason and it's the same reason I leave the room when someone starts talking about it at family parties. I don't want to offend anyone. The only place I talk about it is on my own blog and in that case, people are coming to me to argue about it. If that's what they want to do then that's OK with me. I just don't want them to tell me not to write something on here because they find it offensive. I think I've been pretty reasonable in keeping things to myself around the family domain but this blog is my domain. Enter at your own risk I guess.

Jeffrey Dean Root said...

Just so I can say I check my facts. I don't want people to think that I get my info from biased sites so I chose the deseret news. I thought they would lean more towards the church's point of view.
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/705282297/LDS-Churchs-in-kind-donations-to-Prop-8-total-190K.html

Anonymous said...

I think that article more or less proves my point.

Anonymous said...

I can understand why you think they should be charged. The story states that it was a state worker I beleive that droped the ball when filing the paperwork. I don't think the church should get involved but it looks to me all their donations were in-kind nonmonetary donations.

Jeffrey Dean Root said...

Can you see why I am frustrated with religion? I mean, do you think I do not have a reason to be? Just asking.

Anonymous said...

I know why you are frustrated but do you understand why I beleive? In-kind and nonmonetary donations are not cash donations but donated time and items. This is legal for the church to do. It is a value of 190,000 dollars tax deductable work. No cash was given if these statments from the church are true. Yes it sucks but until the lawmakers change those rules it's legal.

I do feel sorry for you. I know one day it will pass. Also I don't feel it's the purpose of the church to take peoples freedoms away, it's to protect the sanctity of mariage. That I feel is what matters to the church.

Jeffrey Dean Root said...

I'm only frustrated because my friends were hurt, and LDS members donated more than everyone else to the prop 8 campaign. Would you not be frustrated if the same thing happened to you?

Jeffrey Dean Root said...

My mistake. I was under the impression that a temple marriage was sacred, not a civil marriage performed in a government building or in a church who's priesthood authority is not valid according to the doctrine you believe in. I would understand your logic but with your reasoning people should be forced to not drink coffee, smoke or drink because their own bodies are sacred temples. But you wouldn't do that to a non believe would you. Why do the same with a civil marriage?

Jeffrey Dean Root said...

To present this question in a civil manner, Why pick and choose what sacred practices you believe should be enforced in a societies government? Why not vote to have them all put up as amendments?

Anonymous said...

I was not trying to upset you or tell you what I beleive. I was simply telling you what the church beleives. And yes the church beleives temple marriages are sacred. They also beleive all mariage is sacred and sanctified by god. I'm not telling you "my doctrine" it's the churches doctrine. This is doctrine from a proclamation to the world. Please disconect me from the church for a little and try and understand why the church is doing what it is doing. I don't think the church should pursue this but at least I try to understand why they do.

I am not trying to argue or prove anything. I am on your side. It should be up to the religion. If episcapalians want a married gay clergy I don't care. I understand where you are coming from but can you understand those who don't agree with us?

Jeffrey Dean Root said...

Yes, I understand why "they" don't want gays to marry, but you cannot blame me for interpreting it as spreading inequality and interfering in peoples personal lives. I know the church does not hate gays, but they do believe it is their responsibility to interfere in their personal matters. How could I not be upset. I do not try to push for laws to remove their religious practices.

Anonymous said...

I understand why you feel this way. I always have. It's not hard to understand. I do not always agree with you but I try to understand. The world will change. Gays will marry. There will be more and more oposition against religion and the traditional family. Understand that I will always beleive in the Church of Jesus Christ. I don't want this to ever come between us. That is your choice. I will always be your brother. I accept that you don't beleive in God. Please accept that I do. I don't want us to throw mud on each other. That doesn't mean we shouldn't talk about these things. None of the things I have said above are meant to be hurtful. And I'm not angry at all. Lets always be brothers and better friends.

Jeffrey Dean Root said...

I am fine with you believing in a God or Gods. I do not believe the world would be a better place without religion, as some agnostics or atheists do. We need variety because it brings about new ideas. I probably wouldn't have a reason to say anything bad about the church if it wasn't for this one issue but I feel that it is a worthy issue of discussion. Things are much better now that I am not talking about it with the family and I am lucky to have a blog where I can speak my mind about things. Better out than in. Keeping it all in will turn me into a ticking time bomb.

SierraMare said...

THIS IS GOD. GOD IS LOVE. LIVE AND LET LIVE. FIND YOUR JOURNEY, BUT KNOW THERE ARE MANY PATHS TO PARADISE. WHEN YOU GET THERE WE WILL MEET, AND SIT AT THE TABLE, AND CONSUME THE 'GIANT COSMIC MUFFIN'... AND IT WILL BE GOOD!

Interesting discussion... Happy Journey!

Jeffrey Dean Root said...

haha, I love it!

Anna said...

Wow, thanks guys for the interesting read.